Today, another proposal that the
Treasury is reported to be looking at to
claw back in this case 2 billion of that
50 billion pounds. And the idea is this.
The idea is putting up taxes once again
on landlords by applying national
insurance, which landlords don't
currently have to pay on their rental
income, to the money that they make by
renting out their properties. that would
see them pay at least another 8% more in
national insurance and rig bring in for
the treasury about two billion quid. Now
I've got to be honest with you when it
comes to landlords and taxes and what
they have to pay I generally take the
approach of there is no violin tiny
enough to be played when landlords get
in touch as they often do and say it's
so unfair. Woe is us. all we did was buy
20 houses and now we're having to pay a
little bit more tax on the thousands and
thousands of pounds of profit we're
making. It's absolutely disgraceful and
so on. But I actually on this one I'm
going to do something I wouldn't
normally do. I'm going to stand up for
Britain's landlords because I do think
this is a ridiculous idea.
Rachel Reeves, it seems to me, once
again, if if she does this, and it is an
if, will have proved that she struggled
to see more than about two inches in
front of her face when it comes to the
impact that her policies are going to
have. Remember last year how she jacked
up taxes on loads of small businesses
and then seemed a bit surprised when
those businesses passed on the increase
to customers and we all had to pay more
for our weekly food shop or our pints or
or whatever it was that we were paying
for. Inflation's gone up in no small
part because Rachel Reeves jacked up
taxes on small businesses. It's going to
be exactly the same if she now increases
taxes on landlords, isn't it? Joe is a
spokesperson for the London Renters
Union. Joe, very good afternoon to you.
Um, what are your thoughts on this? Is
is taxing landlords more something you'd
like the chancellor to do?
Well, look, this this very specific tax,
I mean, I hear what you're saying, Ben,
and talking about the the interest of
renters, but as a renter and as someone
as who works, I pay national insurance.
So, why shouldn't my landlord pay
national insurance, you know, renters
who make up, you know, the people who
keep our country going, the keep our
cities going, the bus drivers, the
nurses, they're all going out, they're
working hard, and they're paying
national insurance. So why should there
be a loophole which prevents landlords
from pay paying national insurance? It's
the same with money that you earn from
stocks and shares and uh uh and
investing. It seems that the richer that
you are in this country, the less likely
you are to have to pay tax. So simply
put, it's completely unfair that renters
would pay national insurance, but the
person who owns their home wouldn't. So,
>> but but in practice, Joe, surely renters
are going to bake up end up paying even
more national insurance because the
landlords will pass on the tax hike to
renters by jacking up their rents to
cover the cost. That's what business
landlords run businesses effectively.
That's what businesses do. That's what
businesses did when they national
insurance that they pay went up. They
passed on the cost to customers and
landlords will do the same. It's renters
that will suffer surely.
>> Look, we've got a private rented se
sector in this country that is re is
completely broken. It's doubled in size
and it's broken at the same time. You
know, like it used to be a place
primarily for students, temporary
workers and stuff like that. And now
it's full of families and old people for
all of their lives. And it's a pretty
poor place to live for a lot of those
people. And right at the bottom, it's a
terrible place to live. It's the most
expensive form of housing and
incredibly, you know, even by by
European standards, it's the most
expensive. And security, how can you
build a life? But this is my point that
the people who are currently already
paying eye watering amounts of money for
often rubbish accommodation if Rachel
Reeves does this and it is an if for now
will end up paying even more. That's why
I think it's a terrible idea.
>> But we need to fix it, Ben. And if we
and and if we're scared of doing
anything which will damage a landlord's
business model, we're not the government
but my fear isn't for the landlords.
It's for the tenants who will end up
paying. Why as the spokesperson for the
London's Renters Union, would you want
tenants to pay more?
>> We don't want tenants to pay more. And
that's why we need to we need to tax
landlords fairly. And we also need to
introduce rent controls because when we
had rent controls in this country and
when they had rent controls in other
countries, you can stop landlords
passing on the passing on the higher
costs of tax, passing on the leveling
the playing field. So you need to
introduce tax changes like this and then
control rent.
>> But we don't have rent controls in this
country. And as far as I'm aware,
there's no proposal from the Labor
government to introduce them. So until
we do, what will happen, surely you
agree, is that landlords will just pass
on this tax increase to tenants. How
does taxing landlords more if we don't
have rent controls? How does that help
tenants?
>> Look, rent controls are not the only
solution to the housing crisis, but they
are absolutely central solution to the
housing crisis. We can't not talk about
this, but we also can't
>> the government isn't talking about it.
We're not going to have rent controls.
So what will happen in practice is that
landlords will pass on this tax to
tenants. And I ask again, how does
taxing landlords more if we don't have
rent controls, how does that help
private renters?
>> We need to completely change the way
that the system works with housing for
two like landlords have had a lot of tax
breaks and the glass government removed
some of those tax tax breaks. The
argument you're making, we would never
have removed any of those tax breaks and
landlord and and landlordism in this
country would remain one of the most
profitable ways of putting putting your
money. It's possible to imagine.
Governments have slowly grown in courage
that they're like, look, it can't be
such an easy racket, especially when
it's something as important as as
housing. And so tax changes like this
are important in level leveling the
playing field.
>> How do they level the playing? How do
they help tenants? They make life worse
for tenants because more landlords sell
up, there's fewer homes available for
rent. And now if there if they don't
sell up, they will be passing this on to
tenants. So it's a double whammy for
tenants.
>> We used to have a we used to have a a
private rented sector which was about
10% of the population. It's now about
20% of the population. That's because
it's grown. What you're saying, Ben,
makes it sound like you want the private
rented sector to grow.
>> No, I want people to be able to afford
home sector to grow. I want more. What I
want is more people to be able to afford
homes, but we don't have that right now.
And so until we do, lots of those people
who can't afford to buy homes will have
to rent privately. Given that is the
case, I want them to pay as little as
possible, not have to cover their
landlord's tax hike at every
opportunity.
>> When a landlord chooses to sell because
the the the tax the the playing field
has been leveled, what happens? Well,
they sell that home. And who buys it?
Well, if a land another landlord doesn't
buy it, a first-time buyer might buy it.
The the reason that that home
>> own
>> only if they've got it only if they can
afford it which millions of young people
can't right now
>> millions of young people can't but if we
see a steady reduction in the size of
the private rented sector and Labour's
ambitions on house building then that
means we have more people in home
ownership and you know this is going to
raise two billion in tax and what could
they spend some of that two billion in
tax the way of providing secure enough
affordable homes for people on lower
incomes which is social housing They've
sold off a million social homes in
recent years in this country. If we
instead started to rebuild our housing
stock like this government has set
social housing stock like this
government going to do, then lower
income people will have to rely less on
the private rented sector and can access
security and affordability through
social housing. We can't just be scared
of the landlords. We have to tackle the
problem uh that has grown over the last
40 years because of a lack of courage
and the fact that 100 MPs earn more than
10 grand a year as a landlord. This is a
landlord. It's a government. We've had a
succession of
>> I don't disagree with you at all about
the importance of building affordable
housing. But you got to do that first.
If you just start taxing landlords now
before those homes have been built,
people will be priced out of renting and
they won't have anywhere to go because
the affordable homes you're talking
about are not going to be built for a
number of years.
>> And there's a very clear solution to
that which is rent controls. So we
control rents. Rents have gone up 20%
more than 20% in the last three years in
this country. If we had rent controls,
my rents would be 20% on average cheaper
at all. That would make the difference.
That's why rent absolutely central to
solving the housing.
>> I hear you completely. And yet the Labor
government is not going to do that.